"And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life." Philippians 4:3 KJV
There can be no dispute about whether women can labor in the Gospel, Philippians 4:3 says that they can. The question is, what does "in (Greek "en") the Gospel" mean? I think there is strong evidence to suggest that "in the gospel" is a euphemism for preaching. Whatever it means, one cannot dismiss it as: washing clothes, cooking meals, cleaning the church, or any number of other activities that have been suggested as the explanation for laboring "in the Gospel."
I am going to approach this in to ways: 1. I will show how the phrase is consistently used throughout scripture. 2. I will show how Paul uses different language in Philippians to show the relationship of the ministry to the Gospel, and the relationship of saints to the Gospel.
CONSISTENT USE OF "IN THE GOSPEL"
"For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;" Romans 1:9 KJV
Paul states that he serves "in the gospel" of God's Son. What does Paul intend to convey by this statement? I think that Paul is using the phrase "in the gospel" as a euphemism for preaching. This seems to be the natural conclusion to be drawn from even a surface reading of the text.
- "he served him in it, by preaching, spreading, and defending it." -John Gill
- "In making known the gospel, or as a minister of the gospel." -Albert Barnes
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"What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel." 1 Corinthians 9:18 KJV
- ABUSE MY POWER IN THE GOSPEL: "whilst he was preaching the Gospel" -John Gill
- "so that I cannot be charged with abuse of my privileges as a Christian preacher." -WNT
- "not to use the privileges that are mine because I am a preacher." -CEV
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"And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;" 2 Corinthians 8:18 KJV
Here it is said of Luke (Tradition) that his praise is, "is in the gospel." It would be impractical for me to quote all the commentaries demonstrating that his praise "in the gospel" is referring to his commendation as a preacher, so I will just cite the ESV.
- "With him we are sending the brother who is famous among all the churches for his preaching of the gospel." -ESV
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"And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:" 1 Thessalonians 3:2 KJV
Timothy labors with Paul "in the gospel." How did he do this? He does this by preaching.
- "one that laboured in the word and doctrine, that studied to show himself a workman, that gave himself wholly to meditation, reading, exhortation, and doctrine, and preached the word in season and out of season and was a fellow labourer with him who laboured more abundantly than any of the apostles" -John Gill
Clearly when Paul speaks of someone as his fellow-laborer "in the gospel" he means that they preached the gospel with him. This is the precise language that he used about women. I think that this is a strong indication that women were involved in ministry.
CONTRAST OF LANGUAGE
When Paul speaks of preaching, or others who preached with him, he calls it laboring "in the gospel;" however, when he speaks to the local congregation and their relationship to the gospel he says they labor "for the gospel."
"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;" Philippians 1:27 KJV
Paul viewed the Philippian saints as striving together "for" the gospel, but he viewed certain women as having labored "with" him "in" the gospel as he did Timothy and other men.
I would contend it is insufficient proof. Sure laboring in the gospel could have meant preaching however it also could have been something as simple as a modern day home bible study. Paul being an apostle not a pastor makes your conclusion even less satisfying. The burden of proof is on you my friend. Are there other instances of women in this role? There are no qualifications for women in the ministry. It also gets very close to crossing the line of subjection. As I said it is possible but not very convincing.
ReplyDeleteI would say that you are against women Chris, because you do not seperate natural from spiritual. Nobody has to prove anything!!!
ReplyDeleteThat is like an athesist saying to an christian prove there is a God. Just because you do not believe something doesn't make it of non-effect. There are qualifications for any child of God. Why do you all place the qualifications of Deacons, and Bishops upon Prophtess????
What you all say does not add up to the call of prophetess, to compare us to what God qualified deacons, and Bishops to live up to. Will you be responsible for every soul that I can win? Will you let the blood rest on you at the judgment? Since, you think I am not qualified?
Women are to be subject to their husbands in the flesh, but in the Spirit there is no male or female. When one preaches if they are not in the Spirit they should quit, because God would then not even be in their ministry for God is a Spirit.
Maybe you'll be convinced at the judgment.
I am waiting your response. If I quit the ministry right now!!!! Will you be responsible for every soul that I could win? Will you answer at the judgment for them when they are lost?
If God called me to preach which he did I assure you. I fought it harder than you fight women ministers I AM SURE. I also learned for every Jonah there is a storm. God talks to me, and I do not have to prove one thing to you, or anyone else that doesn't believe in women ministers. It never was between me & you!!!! It was between me & God! I do not have to prove to an athesist there is a God for every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD.
I do not have to prove to you that God called me. However, when you fight against women, and if you are not for us you are against us! Since, God did really call me preach be careful lest you find yourself fighting against him! When you fight someone that really is called of God are you not fighting God?
Jesus don't have to prove a thing either. There never be another Calvary.
Thank you very much Brother John Calvin for your dedicated service to Christ, and this post.
May God Bless you also Chris.
Prophtess Christy E./ Missouri
E-mail: ministriesofgod@yahoo.com
@ Chris: If would are willing make Paul a "simple" home bible study teacher then your argument is fine. She labored together with Paul; what he did she did.
ReplyDeleteWhere are the qualifications for a woman Sunday school teacher, song leader or musician? In fact, where do you find the New Testament telling us to play music in the church? Where is and example of music in the church?
This argument from silence, while something to consider, is not proof.
Phoebe was a "deacon of the church" in Romans 16:1.
Dear Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteI would never condemn or place judgment on women who feel they are called into the ministry. My contention was not with the concept, it was the quest that John was taking for concrete Biblical acceptance. I totally agree with your view of subjection in the spirit for "God is no respecter of persons". Without getting in an all out war here I would say that as long as you use your flesh to minister the word of the Lord that "carnal" subjection rules that the apostle Paul established would still apply. I believe women has and can be used mightily of God. However to ignore that there might be some limitations would be to imply that the rules of subjection clearly established in scripture are somehow not applicable in our spiritual endeavors. I don't think we can render them useless or void in spiritual matters. No intent to offend here. God bless your work for His kingdom.
Brother John i enjoyed our exchange concerning this subject.I do disagree with you on this.But i felt our exhange was very edifying.Thanks for dialoging with me.I love youre blog.and i agree with you more then i disagree on subjects.waiting on you or weatherly to take on james white.any ways peace be unto you.Brother Steve Sparks
ReplyDelete@ Stephen: I enjoyed it too!
ReplyDeleteChris,
ReplyDeleteWe are under subjection. We are under subjection to the LORD, and also to our pastors. Nevertheless, men in the church likewise should be under subjection to their pastors as well. However, we must rightly divide the word of the LORD. If a women is married to a non-believer who says she can't go to church. Is she to obey her husband, or the LORD? You may not know me, but I am a very submissive person out of ministry the word. Under ministry I am submissive to my pastor, and my God Jesus Christ!
I would not be subject, obedient, or submissive to the LORD if I obeyed every man who did not believe in women ministers.
I would say the LORD!!!!
Sister Christy
"...Let the ELDER that ruleth well be counted worthy of double honor." Also the scripture said "...let the ELDER women teach the younger." This word for ELDER in the original language is the same root word in both instances. This is some more of the same language used denoting preachers.
ReplyDeleteAlso there is the address from the apostle, "...To the ELECT LADY ....." I am reasonably confident that he was not talking about the pastors wife! (i.e., "the 1st Lady...) LOL
However, while the list goes on and on, I appreciate your approach to this subject. It is simple, yet profoundly direct and affective. It says it as good as I have ever heard it put.
The Elect Lady was the church.
ReplyDeleteVery well stated from an angle I have never heard. I have debated back and forth over the years in the POSITIVE position for Women in the Ministry, and have used many different scriptural references and avenues. However, Brother Carroll has put the icing on the cake with this writing, I am like the disciples.....I have never heard it on this fashion before.....Very good work Brother Carroll, I'm sure this came after much study and prayer. Keep up the good work, you can't tear down what is backed up by the word of GOD !
ReplyDeleteGod Bless,
Pastor Charles A Drew
Lighthouse Pentecostal Church
Bolivia, NC 28422
www.lpcbolivianc.com
@ Pastor Drew: Thank you very much for those kind words.
ReplyDeleteGood Article. I don't agree with all of it, but well researched. I don't want the Prophtess up there to call me a sexist, so I'll just tackle this point....
ReplyDeleteThe word labor in Phil 4:3 is synathleō which is to strive at the same time with another.
The word in Corinthians 9 is euaggelizō which means to instruct men concerning the things of christian salvation. (From the root euaggelion which is of course "the gospel, or good news itself"
If paul, who appeared pretty precise in how he stated things, would have been making reference in Phil 4:3 to the women laboring with him by method of preaching.. why not use the word for preaching, instead of a general term for labor.
My father in law in an evangelist, his wife is not. Though I will guarantee you that she labors with him in his ministry. She not only does the cooking cleaning ect.. but she plays music, sings, prays with ladies in the altar, I've seen her flat wear herself out laboring with him. But she does not preach.
(And before the profitess up there calls me a sexist.. my mother worked on a railroad crew, taught me how to hunt, fish, and fight. She can out shoot, out fight, and out think most men I've met... but she doesnt preach either.)
It's not against women, it's for the bible.
@ Plain Ole Saint of God You said, "If paul, who appeared pretty precise in how he stated things, would have been making reference in Phil 4:3 to the women laboring with him by method of preaching.. why not use the word for preaching, instead of a general term for labor."
ReplyDelete1. My argument was not on labor, rather "in the gospel." The point is that "in (en) the Gospel" is a euphemism for preaching. So, "labor in the gospel" would be, "labor in preaching."
You also said, "My father in law in an evangelist, his wife is not. Though I will guarantee you that she labors with him in his ministry. She not only does the cooking cleaning ect.. but she plays music, sings, prays with ladies in the altar, I've seen her flat wear herself out laboring with him. But she does not preach."
1. I truly love your in-laws, but your mother-in-law does not labor "in the gospel" she labors "for the gospel." Your father-in-law labors "in the gospel." That distinction is in scripture.
I am aware of the premise in your article.
ReplyDeleteI just don't agree with it, though I do greatly respect your opinion!
The point I was apparently unable to make, is that in the instances where "In the Gospel" was used, there was an action word before it.
Preached in the Gospel, Labored in the Gospel, and so on. Each time the word meaning something different, and referring to something different.
In the gospel means exactly what it says...
In the Good news. "In the business" as it were.
I personally like to think that I live in the Gospel. That I work in the Gospel. That I labor in the Gospel. That sometimes I even mourn in the Gospel. But I no longer preach.
I have read and reread your article. I can see the point you are trying to make, but I just don't see the weight of evidence on your side, neither in scripture or weight of the language.
I spent around 3 hours yesterday on a flight, searching scriptures and still could not support your opinion, no matter how I wanted to.
I would like to think that I was mistaken and that in some way I could be "enlightened"...
But I'm afraid the fact must just be faced, this does not support that women can preach to a group of men.
Sorry bud:(
I do still love you though :)
How do you account for the distinction of laboring "IN" the gospel, and "FOR" the gospel.
ReplyDelete1 Timothy 5:17 ESV
17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.
Certainly the word labor can modify preaching.
The Gospel is simply the good news of Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteIf you are working in it, then you're performing actions that are directly related to the gospel. Could be preaching, could be teaching, could be witnessing, could be evangelizing.
If you are working FOR the good new of Jesus Christ, then the actions you are performing are outside of the "Job Description" but are still causing a heading towards the goal.
I would hope that everything that I do is working for the goal of the Gospel, but there are specific things that I do which are actually in the KRA (Key results area) of the Gospel itself.
I guess the point boils down to this.
I can show you with definite clearness what Paul says. He's not pulling punches or hiding things in might be's or maybe's ...
He strait up said how women are to be in public service...
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
( Now why did he claim this was instituted?)
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
There is no other way to translate this scripture...
But I'll continue on...
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
(Last I understood, a woman cannot be husband of one wife...)
So, women can't be bishops...
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
(Both times the word church there is Ekklesia... which means a meeting of an assembly of a group of Christians.)
I know that we all seek to be enlightened, but I'm afraid the search to allow women to preach in any way form or fashion just doesn't hold scriptural water.
I can show you without a doubt where the bible says that they cannot...
but it cannot be shown with out guessing and maybes that there might some way be a possibility that one day there might be a reason that one might think there is a chance that women can preach.
@ Robert: I still think you are missing my point a little bit about the phrase "in the Gospel." Be that as it may, let's look at your verses. Let's take them one at a time and deal with 1 Corinthians.
ReplyDelete1 Corinthians 14:34-35 KJV
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
I want to make a couple points to begin the discussion of this text. The context of women speaking is specifically them "asking questions" and "learning."
Question for you. Can a woman ask her husband a question at church?
Secondly, what does the phrase "as also saith the law refer to?"
First, let me premise by saying that church in this reference (Ekklesia) is not church as we know it today. They had no "pre service prayer" and then "Worship Service" and then "Preaching" and then "Altar Call".
ReplyDeleteThe Ekklesia in reference is to what they considered "Church". That time when an organized assembly of Christians met together (Place doesn't matter) to hear the preached word of God. If my feeble ex-baptist mind can understand what I learned at bible school...
Then the services where lead by the pastor, he expounded on the Gospel and the floor was open to questions from the congregation. It was an open forum discussion.
There are several examples of this through Jesus' preaching when people asked him questions in the middle of His teaching.
So, though they have become an accepted part of what we call church... I don't consider pre-service prayer or worship service to be "Church". I consider gathering for the preached word of God to be church, it's the meat, and everything else the mashed potatoes and veggies. (I.E. you can have a church that does not have a musical worship service and still call it a church, but you cannot have a church that does not have preaching, a church)
So that being said....
Can a woman ask her husband a question at church....
If you believe that the bible says that a woman (Gune) wants to learn (mathanto) anything (tis) then she is to ask (eperotao) her husband at home (oikos)...
Then no, a woman should not ask her husband a question in regards to learning about the scriptures during church service. There is really no other way to translate that.
Have we loosened up on that... just as much as services are no longer arranged as they where, yes.
The Law (nomos) is referring to the law of Moses. I have to admit, I have not looked up which law this is in reference to, but I will later today.
I am curious, while we're answering questions with questions...
How are you planning on getting past the world (laleo) used in 1 Cor 14:34? a word used for not just speaking but preaching specifically?
Look forward to your response.
@ Robert: First of all, "as also saith the law," refers to Genesis 3:16. That is, if it refers to the law of Moses. Some say that it refers to the Talmud.
ReplyDeleteThe point is, assuming Paul is quoting Genesis, is that what Paul was teaching was in harmony with the Old Testament; the Old and New Testament agree on the issue of women speaking. This is something I will use later.
You asked, "How are you planning on getting past the world (laleo) used in 1 Cor 14:34? a word used for not just speaking but preaching specifically??
1. The word 'laleo' is used many times in the New Testament that it does NOT refer to preaching and refers to speaking in general.
2. You state that it refers specifically to preaching; however, I have found no lexicon who defines it as preaching. That terminology is used defining some words, i.e. loosed in 1 Corinthians 7:27: "loosening, that is, (specifically) divorce: - to be loosed."
What source can you quote that defines it as preaching? I would be happy to address it if you did. Even if one definition of 'laleo' was preach you would have to prove that it meant it in this text. It certainly does not.
3. Here is one verse that you will not want 'laleo' to mean preach:
And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and SPAKE of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
Luke 2:36-38 KJV
Does 'laleo' mean preach here?
I only have 30 min to get ready for to night and leave. I will pick this up after church. :)
@ Robert: I agree mostly with what you say about the definition of the church.
ReplyDeletePreaching is nowhere in the context of 1 Corinthians 14. So, how could "speak" possible refer to preaching?
You said, "If you believe that the bible says that a woman (Gune) wants to learn (mathanto) anything (tis) then she is to ask (eperotao) her husband at home (oikos)... Then no, a woman should not ask her husband a question in regards to learning about the scriptures during church service. There is really no other way to translate that."
So, if the pastor is preaching and your wife did not understand what he said she would not be allow to lean over and ask you, "what did he mean by that?"
What definition of "silent" allows a woman to say anything at all if you understand this to be a general command and not a specific contextual one?
silent means:
"to be kept in silence, be concealed" Thayer
Does she violate this is she:
Sings
Speaks in tongues
prophecies
Testifies
Um, Strongs...
ReplyDeleteG2980
λαλέω
laleō
lal-eh'-o
A prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, that is, utter words: - ->preach<-, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter.
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This is the word used also used in acts 16:6
"...and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach (laleo) the word in Asia,..."
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It is also used in Matthew 13:13 in where Jesus Spoke to the people in Parables.
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Now, I am aware that there are more popular words for just the basic act of preaching. But this word does seem to fit.
(Though it is mostly used for speaking there are other words used for just speaking as well.
It's an interesting choice for this particular scripture)
And now I must retreat for slumber, and let you make your next point:)
as I said, "Even if one definition of 'laleo' was preach you would have to prove that it meant it in this text."
ReplyDeleteYou are affirming that "speak" means preach in this context. The burden of proof is on you. Preaching is no where in the context of 1 Cor 14.
Does it mean preach in Luke 2:36-38?
Also the question about, "as also saith the law."
If you don't mind address my above point on "silence" when you get chance.
The specific silence that she is to have is, not asking her husband questions at church, not preaching at church.
It was an interesting choice not because it means preaching, but that it specifically includes preaching as a meaning. SO one could not say " Well this is just referring to speaking "
ReplyDeleteThe burden of proof is on you to fight against such a statement to prove women preaching.
This scripture says that a woman is not allowed to speak during church. If she cannot speak, she cannot preach. Unless she wanted to do the whole thing with sign language, or a dry erase board.
The word here does not mean preach, but it does in other places, so you cannot say that this word does not cover preaching only speaking.
The absolute here is that the bible says that women should not as much as speak during the church service they had. As preaching was more of an open forum than the church we have today.
A great example of this was Priscella and Aquila... if they where able to speak during a "service" they would have simply joined in the discussion, yet they waited until Apollos was done, service was over, and then pulled him aside privately to further instruct him.
How can one argue against the many closed ended statements and admonitions against women preaching with "My opinion is, and one might say that, and it could be possible that"...
If you'd like to argue that we are a socially different culture than what they had then, well, that opens up a whole new can of worms that I believe neither of us wish to fish with.
I have yet to see one solid piece of evidence that leads to make me believe that anything was meant except what was said...
Women are not allowed to preach to a church service.
As for the woman keeping silence, I assume you are going to argue that the woman is to keep peace and harmony.. I have heard this argument and found that it's not a woman's responsibility anywhere to keep peace in a church service, only to keep silent as in not speaking, as in uttering no sound .. as Strong's translates the word.
Again, I am not referring to what we have created socially as a worship service, or even altar calls, as they did not exist during the time of this scripture's writing. I am simply referring to the open discussion forums. Can she ask her husband a question about if he locked up the camel up before they came in.. that's not what he is referring to, and I believe we both know it.
In the addressing of the congregation of a church service, the discussion is between the man and the preacher. The woman is to remain silent. If she has a question, she is to discuss it with her husband at home and receive answers from him. It's his responsibility if he has no answer to ask the question of the preacher the next service (or sooner if need be) that way he remains as the spiritual authority of his home.
It's over the net, and your turn :)
Great discussion! Of course, you are all wrong except me. :-)
ReplyDelete@ Bro. Robert: I will be really busy over the next few days, so I may not post for a few days.
ReplyDelete@ Bro. Robert Faulkner: I am going to address your last post when I have time to sit down and write, but in the meantime can you answer a couple questions for me?
ReplyDelete1. Did women prophecy in the NT Church?
2. Is prophecy the context of 1 Corinthians 14?
@Pastor Steve Pixler...
ReplyDeleteIf I am taking the right side of the fence, and my dear brother is taking the left side of the fence, then by your comment do you propose that straddling the fence is the way to go, or do you suggest that there is a 4th dimension to the fence that we have yet to understand and transcends the fence itself into a realm of spiritual enlightenment?
*I really hope the teasing was caught there, and that I don't become the topic of next weeks sermon...*
@Friar John...
1. Did women prophecy IN the NT church. No, how could they if there where not allowed to speak?
(Or did you mean the more broad question of ... Did women prophecy during the foundations of the NT church and the continued course of it's existence.... Yes, of course they did and still do.)
2. Is Prophecy the context of 1 Corinthians 14. Yes. the entire chapter is referring to the rules and regulations of Prophecy (and also the rules and regulations of speaking in tongues.)
I guess you could consider it Communication 101.
As you're off I might as well take up some time with a bit of explanatory oration on the subject. Give an avid talker a minute, and he takes an hour!
If you will refer (as I'm almost sure you will) to Corinthians 11 as to the Praying and Prophesying of a woman with her head uncovered, you would of course note that there is no modifier attached to the participles. Now, that is just fancy talk for the fact that the scripture does not denote a place where these activities are to be performed.
I don't think that we should attempt to add to scripture here by assuming that it does.
By not putting a stipulation on this scripture then it only allows the behavior to be performed when and were acceptable. For instance a woman can prophecy, teach, speak, or pray in any place that it's allowed, only not in "en tais ekklesiais" or "in the assemblies" as mentioned in 1 Cor 14.
To put a more modern spin on it. When I am in the comfort of my home I may speak when I like and to whom I like. But when I am in the court of Law, I am not permitted to do so, the law does not allow, and the judge can sentence me to contempt.
While it is evident throughout scripture that women where given the gift of prophecy, they are to exercise that gift in the other opportunities that arise. Those opportunities do not arise in the assemblies.
For a reference of the limitation placed on a spiritual gift, see Paul's comments on speaking in tongues and the appropriate times and place for such an exercise of that gift.
The value of women in the Gospel is without question. Their service in the Gospel is without question. Their service for the gospel is without question. (Even Paul himself gives honor to a woman who taught him... outside of the assemblies) What is also without question is the scriptures definitive truth which unequivocally prohibits as much as speaking of a woman during the assembled church.
I do pray that God continues to bless you on your travels, and look forward to reading your response. I hope I've answered your questions this time :)
It's been a week.
ReplyDeleteI have this visual of you on a mountain cliff with the dead sea scrolls researching.
Or at Applebee's with the menu, researching....
@ Bro. Faulkner: Sorry Bro. for the pause in conversation. Been Slammed. I am coming back at you in a couple days. :) No dead sea scrolls.
ReplyDeleteI asked, "Is Prophecy the context of 1 Corinthians 14?" You said, "Yes. the entire chapter is referring to the rules and regulations of Prophecy (and also the rules and regulations of speaking in tongues."
ReplyDeleteBefore I respond to your overall post, allow me one more question.
Would the context also include singing (vs. 26)? If not, why not?
If a woman during the confines of an OT church service was not permitted to "to talk, that is, utter words:preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter." then how could she sing?
ReplyDeleteI want to bring this a little back to focus, because we're talking in circles here.
I have shown you in plain English and even some plain Greek where the bible says that women are not allowed to so much as speak during the confines of the OT church service.
I have shown you the examples of the words of the Apostle Paul (who I place higher on the religiously intelligent food chain than I ever will be) saying that women are not allowed to as much as speak during the confines of the OT church service.
---(Insert Challenge Here)----
Can you show me the place where without "maybe it meant" or "If you translate this with my magic box of crayons" or "well, can a woman sneeze in church?".... where the bible contradicts itself by saying in one scripture that women cannot as much as speak in church and in another saying that it's OK for a woman to do so?
CLARIFICATION: Did you mean NT instead of OT in the above post? Not that it would matter because same rule would apply to both according to Paul's statement, "as also sayeth the law."
ReplyDeleteWe are not talking in circles; I am trying to see how consistent you will be. So far, you seem to be pretty consistent. You have said: Women cannot Prophecy in church. Women cannot sing in church. Women cannot speak in tongues in church.
So, if I were to show that if a woman did any of these things in church then your understanding of women not speaking and being silent in the church would be demonstrated to be misguided.
First of all women certainly spoke in tongues in the NT. I am assuming on example would be sufficient?
Acts 1:4 they were "assembled."
Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, [U]with the women[/U], and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Acts 2:1-4 they, all of the 120 (women included) were filled with the Holy Ghost and spake with tongues.
This was the birth of the church. Surely you will not deny that this is a church service: There were assembled both men and women. There was preaching. Women spoke with tongues in the assembly with men.
Let's discuss this one item at a time. I start with tongues, then you can choose next between prophecy and singing.
I never said that women could not sing.
ReplyDeleteI never said that women could not prophecy.
I never said that women could not speak in tongues.
I said they could not do these things in a NT church service.
Acts 1:4 the word for assembled is not the word for church, it's a generic term about people coming together in a group. If this is a church service, then we are having a church service at Fuzzy's Taco.
Acts 1:14 They where gathered in a room praying and supplication.
As well as in Acts 2:1-4. At this point they where following the commandment of Jesus:
And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me; ...
They where not preaching, there was nothing in fullness to preach yet. There was nothing more in either of these situations other than prayer and supplication. Anything else would have been against what God wanted. They didn't have the Holy Ghost yet.
The only preaching that happened in ACTS 2 was once the Holy Ghost fell and Peter preached the first message of the NT church. I don't see anywhere then where women spoke.
As for Tongues...
Paul Admonishes the speaking of tongues to a church service unless someone is there to interpret. He also says a woman is not to speak during the service. Nothing was said about a woman speaking in tongues when praying to God during a prayer session as the two mentioned above.
Singing and Prophecy are both things that can be done outside of the confines of a church service. And, I find no place in the bible that says a woman can't pray, sing, or prophecy, as long as she's not doing it during the model of the NT church service.
This discussion is about women preaching. Not women singing, not women prophesying, or speaking in tongues. Any of these things cannot be done vocally by a woman during the NT church. Unless Paul was just kidding.
ACTS 8:1-4
ReplyDeleteAnd Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.4 Therefore THEY that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
ROM.10:14 How then shall they (MEN AND WOMEN) call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they (MEN AND WOMEN) preach, except they be sent? as it is written, are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
In my humble and simple opinion ALL... both men and women were involved in carrying the gospel.
I really have no desire to cross swords with anyone...however I have been a woman missionary for almost 48 years and have seen thousands come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
I personally never heard the Lord say to me, Go Preach but He did call me to be a missionary whatever that may mean to you.
Jeff, what do you think "CalvinismMyWay" means?
ReplyDeleteHave we ever met?
Where do you attend church?
Calvinism My Way is merely an attempt a cleverly juxtaposing my name with a know theological scheme as a way of individualizing my opinions.
DeleteI agree with you that women preachers is not a savific issue.
So far you have not seriously critiqued my argument. If you would like to do so I would gladly engage you.
I too hold to the oneness of God, baptism in Jesus name and the baptism of the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking with tongues. I count you as a brother in Christ.